To me, when it comes to abortion, it's the woman's choice. However, the father should have a say in it especially since it took 50% of him and 50% of her to make the child. The ultimate choice should lay in the hands of the woman but if the man is opposed, he should be cut from all responsibilities.
I agree full heartedly. Ultimately, it is the woman's decision because she will be the one, metaphorically and literally, carrying the weight for 9 long months. I do however, think the man should have some valuable input because it is his child as well. If the father really wants to have the child, well then he should step up to the plate and do everything in his power to make the woman feel at ease. Either way, in the end, one cannot force a woman to have or not have a child. But I think it should be a decision based upon strong values and weighted against the pros and cons.
well first off, abortion in general isn't a choice as you are killing a human being...
now that that is said, if we ARE looking at the "choosing" then i would say the father definitely has a say [keeping in mind the situation ie.) is it marriage or the result of a hook up?].
i think it sucks that women go on these power trips of how it's "the woman's choice" [in all honesty it's no one's choice, that's a person and you can't just decide to kill him or her].
the baby is just as much the mother's as is the father's..granted the woman is the "incubator" for the baby for lack of a better word, so it's understandable for most to say it is her choice.
but when it all comes down i think it's unfair that the women automatically gets to decide, because it is not ONLY her child.
I don't know whats worse, being aborted or living a life where your parents wanted you to be. I'm not pro anything, because i know when the "mistake you made" is growing in your stomach your anti-abortion t-shirts aren't going to help you make any decisions. Every emotion and choice is conditional, situational, non-predictable. Just as the fathers say in this situation is conditioned to how much he cares about the woman not the infant, an unwanted child is an unwanted child, its just a matter of making it work. I don't think people should have children that won't be loved or taken care of efficiently. Abortion maybe killing a child, but maybe a life that wasn't meant to be, is just as it is. I think its the same amount of chance that the child's life will be normal as it would be terrible, you shouldn't give birth to a 50/50 chance of a happy child. Especially when the only factor is your own love for it. As far as the father goes, he may have released his army but its not his war. Commander and chief is mommy dearest and that's the end of it.
i see your point, however i disagree on two notes:
1.) "a life not meant to be" is not up to another human being to decide; that's completely unethical. i understand there are many cases where the child is unwanted, but hey let's just kill 'em they'll be better off! what kind of fix is that? a very dense one. that child is a human life and it is not up to the parents to decide what it's fate will be.
2.) also the decision is not up to "mommy dearest", you wanna get technical it's up to God if that's where we're going. another human cannot decide the fate of another human and say it'd be better of just being killed...plain and simple, black and white that makes no sense.
i understand the point, I'm merely playing the devils advocate. But i don't understand how God is the more technical aspect of this conversation, its an abstract manifestation of natural human fear, but that's not the subject. The crusades weren't very ethical...neither was the great flood. God is irrelevant. People kill each other everyday, we are constantly deciding who lives and who dies. Yeah it is black and white, plain and simple...but what world do you live in? Of course it makes no sense but it happens everyday...I'm not looking at this as a baby killer because i'm not...i'm viewing this objectively and seeing what is really there.. You lived this far in your life, and you know its not all candy canes and kitty cats, imagine being unwanted from birth and resented. Not every baby gets to go to college or have nice home cooked meals made with moms love. Better off dead...no. No one is better off dead. I'm not saying unsure mothers should abort, I'm saying mothers who are dead sure they suck at being moms should abort, life is already unfair, i just see it as torture for the poor kid. Should we give birth to our coke babies, heroin babies or AIDS babies, i mean it is a human life it would be a shame not to give them the miserable existence they deserve.. And then there is adoption, just what every child dreams off, being more lost than a child normally is. Statistically adopted kids probably turn out well, so when they are locked in their rooms cutting themselves to radiohead songs someone can tell them that statistically they should be happy. But in the end, i guess just give birth and whatever happens...happens, sounds like a silly game where you might win and you might lose...like i said I'm not for abortion and I'm not against it, its just another issue where the argument of it all doesn't really matter. Nothing will ever change, babies will be aborted, and some wont. And unfortunately it is up to the parents to decide a child's fate whether its born or not. Like i said I'm just being the bad guy, i like people to fight for what they believe in...i just don't believe in anything. I could very easily argue in your favor.
ya that's legit; i always argue devil's advocate as well, i've also done it for abortion.
although you have valid points they are not valid to this particular argument...yes we kill people everyday in war, but that is under completely different circumstances .
a baby is a life. and when you say it may not have a good life, and it may be unwanted, that is determining his or her fate, and is therefore your justification for murder.
there is not justification for murder in this scenario; a baby fetus is put into a vulnerable situation where other human beings can decide to kill it because they assume the fate of the baby will be bad, and that they do not want him or her. you cannot justify taking an innocent child's life in this scenario.
and also when u said "But i don't understand how God is the more technical aspect of this conversation, its an abstract manifestation of natural human fear, but that's not the subject."
God is the more technical aspect because He is the one who is the "commander in chief" the one who has any say in this baby's life really, and is most definitely relevant to this topic because He is "commander in chief" over all things.
You win this debate because your answer is God?
If we left more situations to God, i assure you we would have a lot more dead babies. There is a lot of blood on God's hands, I'd rather leave life to the experts...you know... the ones who actually live it.
People are going to choose abortion...even if its outlawed. I'm not condoning child murder, but i am not denying that it is a rational choice to a lot of people either. Death is death. you can wrap it up in any miserable pink ribbon you want...Sure, aborting a child seems worse, it appears more ethically damaged than one soldier killing another. But I'm sure everyone is pretty damn vulnerable when their life is taken from them. Sure a fetus didn't join the marines but does that really mean its more horrible. It was a pre-meditated thought to end a breathing, blinking, talking, walking form of life...aborting someone's life is the same no matter how old you are. Killing someone may be conditional...but its still killing someone. Parents who are pregnant that didn't want a kid are idiots, I'm not insulting their intelligence just their sexual IQ...either way the child receives an outcome that is entirely unfair. It shouldn't be up to the parents, god, or you or me...obviously it should be up to the kid...but he can't make a decision so mommy gets the decision to pull the switch.
Babies die in the womb all the time, miscarriage is Force Majeure ( act of god) He is the most well known abortionist in the world. To say its not our place to determine fate...when is it not. When hasn't it been our decision? it always has...I don't want babies to be aborted...But we don't live in the world you want us to live in...We choose death for others on small scales and large scales, its not right, its not just, its not helpful but it happens. Abortion is another way to point the middle finger at god...slowly we are all becoming that faceless man in the clouds. Absolute control. I say stop all the convoluted whispers of right and wrong because until you experience it, you can't pass judgment at all. when it comes down to it...its not the choice of killing a baby or letting it live...anyone can make that choice...its the choice of sacrificing your own life for one mistake, or starting over (to put it mildly). People are selfish, they lie, they cheat, they steal, they kill, its what were good at. Why would you want another innocent life exposed to any of this in first place. Your entire argument is based on the fact that this world is good and that people are, by nature, nice... Well if you're considering aborting your child, you have your answer...People who want kids should have kids...that's the only definite truth i can verify.
yo zabler, plain and simple: abortion is murder, murder is wrong and against the law. CASE CLOSED.
it's up to God because he's in charge of everything, not some woman who wants to kill her baby for whatever reason. it's wrong however u care to dissect it, in the end it is still MURDER however u like to sugar coat it.
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